Update: this article seems to have spawn a number of different opinions. Which, we must admit, makes us rather happy – discussion, as someone much brighter than me has said, is an exchange of knowledge. More importantly, argument is an exchange of ignorance. While the photograph described at the beginning of this article is not actually all that important for the said discussion, a lot of our readers have expressed their curiosity and wish to see the reason for this article popping up in my head. And no matter how tastefully and subtly done, please do note it contains nudity, and if that is something you’d prefer your children not to see – or something you would prefer not to see yourself – take caution. For the rest, click here and enjoy.
Several weeks ago, I came upon what I think was a magnificent black-and-white photograph. It portrayed a young, rather skinny woman laying graciously on the ground somewhere in a forest clearing, naked. She was lying on her side, half curled up around a large, moss-covered rock. So different from it in most every way possible – warm, alive, sensitive – she was embracing it gently. The photograph was taken from directly above the young woman and, through the use of loose central composition, negative space and beautiful natural light, she, as the main subject, would instantly draw the viewers eye, her skin so pale and bright against what must have been dark green, brown Autumn foliage. While I will not be publishing this photograph here for obvious reasons (Photography Life is 100% child-safe and will always remain so), I must note there was not a hint of erotica about the photograph. Rather, a very subtle, tasteful tribute to the human body. Fine art. Pure, light. Airy somehow. I called it sensual at first, but many misunderstood me, or perhaps I chose the wrong word. Sensuous is a much better fit. I could not help but admire it for what seemed like hours. And then I read a comment left by one of the viewers: “This is not a portrait. It is a piece of fine art nude photography”, – he stated.
What I had not immediately noticed, was that the author specified his work as a portrait rather than an example of artistic nude photography depicting the materiality (or, perhaps, spirituality) of a human body and its place in, and coherent with, nature. But, at first glance, it was hardly a portrait. The subject’s body was definitely presented very graciously in a very aesthetically pleasing, interesting manner, but one could hardly make out her face all that well, let alone study it more deeply. Did the author make a mistake defining his work whilst publishing it? Instead of jumping to that conclusion and agreeing with the comment left by one of the viewers – agreeing with my own initial interpretation – I opened up my mind and, just for a second, looked at the photograph as if it was indeed a portrait. If the author did not make a mistake, his attempt to introduce the photograph as a portrait was deliberate. Which means that there was a reason to do so. And I was simply staggered by what I saw. “This is not a portrait. It is a piece of fine art nude photography.” Wrong. It was a portrait. Very much so. Calm, poetic, and much, much better than if it were just fine art nude. Simply because it was so much more personal, so much more profound and powerful as a portrait than it would have been if interpreted the way that seemed more obvious, more natural at first, whilst retaining all that was so positive of my initial interpretation. Seeing it as a portrait added depth to what was already a pleasing, well-sorted photograph. And you couldn’t even see her face properly.
It would be a little silly of me to try and explain why I felt this photograph was so good when I can’t even show it to you, but, as contradictory as that may sound at first, it is actually not important. What is important is the number of questions that instantly popped up in my head as soon as I interpreted what seemed like an artistic nude photograph as if it were a portrait, a conclusion one would hardly draw without the author’s aid. If a photograph that does not even show the subject’s face can be interpreted as a portrait, what is a portrait in the first place? What defines it as such? And since I raised that question, might as well ask – what is a landscape? A nature morte photograph? How far can one actually stretch such a concept, how far can you superficially move away from your idea in your attempts to profoundly visualize it?
In order to answer these questions I must, ironically, leave them be for a while and form another. Throughout the years that I have studied in the Faculty of Arts, I have been faced with this one following question again and again. How much artist’s input beyond the actual work of art is needed to interpret it successfully? Is it valid and justified to refer to a title, perhaps a description provided by the author along the work of art, even his own merits, biography, whilst trying to unravel it? Or does the strength, impact of such a piece lie in its own richness, and the work should “speak for itself” without any added explanation and context, if it was ever to be worthy of admiration and appreciation of the brightest among us? Both opinions have been fiercely defended (and, as a result, fiercely attacked) by students and teachers, and I envy those who have enough criteria, enough strong arguments to stick to just one. Such ability is beyond me, for I have always managed – and, in a way, failed – to understand either one. Because a title, a complimenting story, even a music playing in the background during an exhibition can too, be a part of the art. We are long past the time when a painting could only be just a painting, a musical composition – just a composition. You can thank synthesis of art forms for that. But then, in a way, accepting such aids also imposes a sort of a limitation on the work of art restricting, narrowing our interpreting possibilities. This idea was discussed in detail by a French philosopher, literary critic and semiotician Roland Barthes in his essay, “The Death of the Author”. I find it necessary for me to elaborate on this concept a little further in order to solve the questions that arose at the beginning of this article.
If I were to (over)simplify his idea, Barthes stated that interpreting a work of art (in his case, literary work, but the idea can be easily adapted to visual arts) on the strength of our knowledge about the author, the creator of that work, limits our choice of potential associations and conclusions about that work. And thus, “death of the author” is a necessity if one is to successfully “take in”, say, a portrait photograph. One must lose the weight of context that is the author and anything beyond the work of art itself to be able to see all that it can be subjective, individual and different to each of us. Once there is no author behind the work of art – and that happens the moment you start dwelling deep into it – the viewer himself becomes its creator, for he sees not what the artist wanted to show, not what the artist saw, but how he himself can relate to the work of art.
What is a portrait? A landscape, a nature morte? Combining these questions gives us one. What is a work of art? Is it what the creator presents us with – that which we can touch, hear; what the creator wants us to see and feel? Or is it what we make of it, what we feel and understand while observing the work without any guidance, subjectively as if we are the creators? Is it our state of mind and the story that unfolds, as we try and unravel the photograph in front of us? Roland Barthes’ idea would lead us to believe the answer is the latter, while those who appreciate creator’s context, guidance, those who want to see what he saw and feel what he felt would probably support the former conclusion. Whilst observing a photograph that was either a portrait or a piece of artistic nude, I had a choice of which concept to base my interpretation on. A choice is a good thing. And I chose both. In this case, I decided to merge the two philosophies, two points of view into one. This portrait, it didn’t tell a story of a person through her face, her expression. Instead, it showed her mind, her state. And through that, through showing her body, allowed the viewer to know her even without knowing her face. And this knowledge about her was based on the photograph itself, on my personal affection, experience, feelings and associations, which became possible with some help from the author. Anyone else would have seen the work differently, but even in that case he would have been aided by the author to create, finish his work. Or one could discard any guidance from the author and choose to see the photograph for something completely different, as long as it resonates with that person in some way.
So what we have is a photograph that is not a portrait, but also is. Because we can choose to see it this way. We can also choose not to. Which brings us to the final question. How far can we stretch such an idea? How far can we move away, in the face of it, from what we are trying to show, only to show it more profoundly? The photograph that provoked me into writing this article, at least it had an actual person in it. Can a landscape be a portrait? Can a portrait be a nature morte, a still life photograph? Once again I must ask you to imagine something. Imagine a pair of round, small, thin-framed glasses in a brightly lit room. You can’t exactly see all of it, but the fragments of the white surface on which the spectacles are left on are enough for you to realize it to be a beautiful, slightly worn white grand piano. The scene is lit by natural light coming from enormous windows just outside the frame. Now, one can choose to admire the lightness of this still life photograph. The beauty of the light, subtle pale, sharp reflection in the glass of the spectacles. Or, one can see it as a portrait of John Lennon. And if the artist, the author of this photograph lends you a helping hand of sorts – a title “The Portrait”, well, all the better. You can choose not to see it if you so wish. If, in your mind, a pair of glasses can not be a portrait.
Our ability to understand and creatively interpret fine art photography – any work of art, for that matter – rests solely on our experience, sophistication and education. And not just the artistic education, mind you. If, whenever you look at a specific photograph that is a portrait, all you see is a secluded lake somewhere amid fog-hidden hills and mountains, with a single wooden red boat ashore, then that portrait is a landscape to you. The fact you also have a chance to see a portrait which the artist wanted you to see, how he wanted you to see it, only makes interpreting fine art photography that much more interesting.
While I cannot say that I have seen the particular photograph in question, I have to say that I am impressed by your approach to the subject. Art is subjective. Some of it appeals to each individual, and some of it does not. However, the act of creating art, and seeing the intentions of the artist, are often very illuminating. I appreciate the nuance of your article and the willingness to explore what the artist was originally shooting for. Composition and “meaning” in the photograph are very important to see what the artist was shooting for. To be clear, there is art that I find objectionable and other art that I find to be much more informative once I understand what the author was intending to convey. Thanks for this unique and in-depth look at the topic.
Damn!, this is probably the best article i´ve read here. Probably fits Roland Barthes´s frame on “the obvious and the obtuse”. Some things are there to be seen, some things are there to be felt, some things are not there, and, yet, they very well could be, if you can see better.
The idea of the entire of existence coming into being by a big bang is much less credible to me that the existence of a Supreme Being. It has long been a scientific principle that matter can never be created or destroyed… so where did it start… who lit the match for the big bang?
Reality is a figment of one’s imagination… ! For several thousand years no one ever saw an atom or an electron, yet they existed. We can’t see the wind or gravity, yet they exist also, they like electrical current are forces that can at least be measured. Maybe God can’t yet be measured, but I would propose that his effects are witnessed many times. Without imagination of things we can’e see or measure we would lose all sense of creativity and beauty.
Hello
I hope you receive this. I understand the controversy (about the concept of portrait vs art vs nudity, etc.)
Norman Rockwell is not called an artist by many to this day. The same for illustrators like the old Wyeth. To me, it is a different art.
I do want to see the photo. I think men (like me anyway) see it one way, a woman sees it another way, etc. Can you send me a crypto-link? I do think you would violate any laws. I live alone.
Best to you
Dick Chilian Phoenix BTW, just returned from China after three months. My camera bag for my D800 and some lenses, flash, filters, batteries, etc., ? A $30.00 heavy duty bowling bag. I could not do ‘snap or fast shots’ while traveling anyway. After arrival unpacked and carried camera in lighter bag.
The bowling bag is built for heavy bowling balls and has extra thick walls and a heavily padded bottom when you sit the camera down. It was great. I also took on a hike yesterday up a mountain. It only has one strap but walking up a desert mountain was fine. No shifting around.
The brand is Ebonite and it has 3 large compartments. I fit in my D800, a Zeiss 100mm, a Nikon 50mm, my Nikon flash, extra batteries, charger, extra bags packing the D800 , the lenses and flash, all my filters, all my flash cards, lens cleaners, etc.
Dick, thank you for your feedback and a mini-review of the bag! Roman updated the article with the link – please see the intro text.
PLEASE close this article to comments. It was an interesting article, but the comments have devolved into a moral flame war rather than a discussion of art. I am unsubscribing either way. Thanks for a great site!
David,
I do agree that the comments have wandered somewhat, but the discussion is still rather enjoyable, it is interesting to see so many different opinions. And, as Andrew has said, all great works are not without controversy. I’d rather read this than people loving/hating something like a Nikon Df, I must admit. :)
Rather sad that you decided to unsubscribe, but then I guess we can’t make everyone happy. I do hope you will come back to read other, less heat-inducing articles!
Thank you ALL for your thoughts.
It may seem strange to consider a photograph with limited facial details as a portrait, unless you consider that an oil painting is usually accomplished over a long period of time relative to the shutter speed of a camera. So the facial details in a painting are really a composite of a person’s individual expressions and in some ways are really more accurate because our expressions are constantly changing and who is to determine which fraction of a second is a true representation of our faces?
In that light, the actual details of a person’s face are not very important to the portrait and other factors replace them. Such as you mention in the “pale” skin or the position of the body and its relationship to background or other objects in the composition.
You used that word because you are part of the discourse. Because this is the discourse. Discourse creates reality. When I put this discourse in the arena you realize your bonds and try to improve expressions. Most of the observers of young naked beautiful girl have no problem to speak about the strong sensual lines and language of the figure.
Lee,
first of all, she is not a girl, she is a woman. I do, however, have a feeling that you are much older than I or the young woman, and that would explain why you, a) address her as if she is 13, though she is closer to 25 and b) why you are so conservative towards a naked body. Which basically means we have no reason to continue this debate.
Secondly, you would like to think that I am trying to improve my expressions, because that would serve your point. I am sorry to disappoint you, but I used that word because, must I repeat myself?, I am a Russian born in Lithuania, and English is not my first language. It might be difficult for you to understand, but “sensual” is the word I knew, while “sensuous” is the word that I did not know up until now, yet what in my language – Lithuanian – means sensuous, I associated with the word “sensual”. I was partly right, because in some situations, these words are synonymous. Or did you not read that the first time I said it? In any case, when I said “sensual”, I mean “sensuous”, and while some people understood me, others clearly did not. That is fine. It is me who used the wrong word. But unless you are blatantly accusing me of lying, I would expect this argument to stop right about now.
I don’t think you a liar. Just unaware. Soaked in our “culture”. From my experience 25 she is a girl. Once you will have a relation with a woman you will understand the difference. I don’t say it’s better – it’s different. As you say: “it’s subtle”. 13 is a child. :-)
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Take a look at youtube: Miley Cyrus – Wrecking Ball
For her it’s “art” (and you may say it is and many will agree with that saying) and read the open letter of Sinead O’Connor to her. It summaries well.
Lee, I am not part of your culture :) From my experience 25 is a woman. I have a relationship with a woman. I have a son. I know the difference.
Lucky you. Me too.
We do agree on something, it would seem!
Neil,
The only hostility is by the greedy eyes of males that feels “sensualed” by a young girl that payed with money ..or by Wormtongue telling her that this is “art” or beautifull to be published laying naked in the forest to satisty with her body the “sensual” pleasure of others. The first word that fits that motion is not “art”.
You are a very interesting man, Lee. :) the word “sensual” is also synonymous, at least to my knowledge, to the word “sensuous”, and that is exactly what I was implying. Not in any way sexuality.
I glanced at a dictionary. You are right. I used the word sensual, but it is not the best choice and so I now understand the confusion. Sensuous is a much better fit and is what I actually meant. They are synonymous in some instances, and should have been synonymous here.
Interesting comments by people. I’m saddened by the veiled hostility towards people, obviously religious, regarding their views of nudity. It seems that “enlightened” and “cultured” has been co-opted by those who smugly believe their views are the only correct views and therefore all other views are uncouth and small-minded. Little do they realize they are demonstrating the very same.
I didn’t mind the photo, I thought it was very well done but not especially revelatory for me. But I appreciate being given the choice to view or not view. And that is the key element here, having the choice. I do not appreciate the view of the self-“enlightened” who would remove my choice and replace it with their dogma.
I appreciate the choice of the PL owners here. They have been very measured and considerate, something many can learn from.
The true is that nobody knows nothing about God and his will. For that reason we say that we “believe” in God, or that we not “believe”. God’s existence is not a mathematical certainty. Personally I’m a real agnostic that lives in the border between believe or not believe. Rationally, for me it is hard to digest some aseverations; but by other side – like in flashes – time to time my intuition tells me that God exists. However – if God exists – for me it is not a puritan or intolerant, and he has nothing against sex and healthy sex arousal. Puritanism and intolerance are more of the devil than of God.
And yes, I believe that a good willed, democratic, open and not dogmatic position in any topic, is better that a dogmatic an irrational one. Said that, I recognize that by the moment I’m more on the mystical side, but my beliefs are my beliefs and nothing more.
This is getting way off topic but I couldn’t resist replying. While we have no certain knowledge of God’s existence, we certainly DO know something about Him, if for no other reason, by our shared definition of “God.” Much like a unicorn, which as far as we know doesn’t exist, it has to look like a horse with a single horn projecting from its forehead since that’s how we’ve defined it. We know, through common agreement, that God is good. The word “God” was actually formed as a contraction of “good.” This attribute is agreed on by Christians, Jews, Muslims, and most every other monotheistic religion or individual. That, of course, is pretty much the extent of our common belief. I’m pretty sure that Lee Jones has different ideas about what is good from most of the readers of this forum as it relates to nudity.
So we are in the same team, because also I think that if God exists, he must be good, but that’s only and idea, a belief. It is not a fact that God exists, and everything about him is pure speculation. We know what is a unicorn, but also we know that unicorns didn’t exist. The fact that everybody around the world knows what is a unicorn doesn’t make it real. We could say,”the unicorn is a real fantasy”, but not “the unicorn is real, as a tiger or a dog are”.
I wouldn’t say we’re on the same team. It would be more accurate to say we have common ground.
Your team believes that God may or may not exist.
My team believes that He absolutely exists but there’s no proof, by design. Much like you prove, and increase, your love for your wife by believing she loves you and is faithful, without proof; our love for God is improved by being based on faith rather than fact.
I didn’t say that I believe that God could exists or not. What I said is that sometimes I believe in it’s existence (as an entity with a plan for our lives), and sometimes not. There is a subtle difference. In the moments I believe in God’s existence I really believe on him. But my beliefs are only valid for me, and I can’t impose them to other people. Also I can not talk about God and his will on the same way I talk about computers. I believe that God favours love over any other thing, but that’s all. What is good for God – if he exists like we imagine him – not necessarily must be good for us or others God creatures that regularly finish as our food.
Jorge,
As for your first statement, I guess the difference is too subtle for me.
As for the second, I would never attempt to impose my beliefs on others, either. If God is real, He doesn’t need me to force Him on anyone.
And finally, if you have children, you know that your what is good for you, is good for them as well, by design. I would never desire something for myself that wasn’t also good for my children, or at least didn’t harm them. Assuming God is real, and has the nature we’ve agreed upon, that would be far more true for Him than us. As for the creatures which become our food, providing food for a human is at least as noble as providing the same for a wolf or a tiger or just dying of old age or disease.
Pretty soon, Nasim is going to ask us to take this somewhere else! ;-)
When you say that perhaps God exists or perhaps doesn’t exists, you are in the middle, in a neutral position. Basically what you are saying is “I don’t know”. When sometimes you believe, you are not anymore in the middle, you are on the side of the faithful people, at least for a short period. So I’m a sort of “active agnostic”, but not an agnostic in the classic sense.
About the food question I agree with you; it is noble to feed the tiger. But what happens when we are the food of the tiger ? Is that good for God ? Perhaps it is, and I understand it.
By other side many times parents whish for their children things that are good for them, but not for their children. In your place I think it would be better to employ a more general proposition, something like: “As you wish a healthy life for yourself, you wish it for your children”.
To not make this nice conversation longer, I suggest trying to do some mystical photos, but of course, not a God’s photo. : ) Best wishes.
I see your point. I guess I don’t understand believing sometimes but not others. C’est la vie!
The rest of your email assumes that the quality/longevity of our life on earth is the main consideration in our, and God’s, estimation. While I would like a great life, that’s not foremost in my mind or, in my opinion, God’s.
I have some landscapes that are fairly mystical. Does that qualify?
Patrick, Jorge – no one is going to drive you out for having a polite discussion, keep it up if you like :)
Yes, landscapes are perfect !
Well, this discussion can easily go far afield but there are some presuppositions you are following. It is not possible to assert as irrevocable truth that no one knows anything about God or his will. Puritans get a bad reputation but their reputation is more of a caricature created of them by people who disagree with them.
In any case, I prefer a civilized discussion over an intractable one.
After reading this article, and suffering through the grammar mistakes and lack of sentence structure … I find yet another person trying to justify their selfish lust with words like “art”, “tasteful”, and “enlightened”.
Photography, like anything can be used for pure and decent purposes, and it can be used for perverted, indecent, and immoral purposes. However, like this person, their argument is so without basis that it consists of name-calling. As when he called people he disagrees with – narrow minded and even uptight. How ironic.
Many people today would describe a photo of a man having intercourse with a 10 year old girl as “art”. Or they might call it – an “adult” photo. As if all adults are perverts. Whenever you see terms like “adult video”, you should know that the term is really “perverted adult video”. Once you open the door to porn being “art” you cannot then complain about art forms of incest and rape. After all, if you don’t agree with that art, then you are just narrow minded. You need to be enlightened into the ways of perversions.
Men love to lust. They love to watch porn at the expense of anyone and anything. They think that using words like “tasteful”, “subtle”, “sensual”, etc. will make their lusting appear normal.
You can call it whatever you want. You try to impose your values on others with phrases like “this form of porn can do no harm”. The truth is it can and does immense harm. Many people will subject themselves to all forms of humiliation and disrespect for money. And men will gladly fork over money to feed their perversions.
A real artist can produce works that you don’t have to censor from decent people. Any pervert can produce porn. It takes real skill to relate to decent people in decent ways.
Sure, there will always be lots of men who will defend their right to feed their lust and indecent desires. Even men who vowed to honor and respect their wives … but if you are into porn, what is a little deceit and dishonesty? They vow to die for them – and then dishonor them and pretend it is enlightenment. Their selfishness is more important than respecting others.
Thankfully this site is for decent people. There are lots of porn sites out there that you can go to. You don’t have to pervert this one. Too bad they have to enforce decency … and respect. Sadly, it is rare to find.
While I agree with some of what you say and respect the intent behind the remainder, I would not attack the authors literary skills given that education in any particular area, or lack thereof, is not an accurate indicator of the intelligence or wisdom of an individuals thinking. Avoid generalizations: you state that “men love to lust.” Does that include you? You then go on to cite arguments that have not been made in this forum. Lastly, you attempt to distinguish yourself from indecent people, as if you are morally superior to anyone. Humility is more difficult to find then respect. Slow down. Take a deep breath. Look at yourself first. Identify the response you seek and withhold anything that is counterproductive.
Mark,
I’ve had several discussions with several people in here so far, all of them shared a different opinion than mine, and only a couple of them received cruder words from me. I do not discard an opinion that is different to mine. I discard those who do not know how to express it politely, who, as Patrick said, attempt to distinguish themselves as if they are morally superior to anyone. They are not. I am not. You are not. But the way you jab me for my grammar is an indication that you think you are. I’ve had people correct any errors I make in a much different fashion. The idea is the same – to show me that I made grammatical errors. Perhaps indicate said errors, so that I can correct them. It’s the way one lets me know of the errors that is so different. You had to “suffer” through an article. I am very, very sorry to hear that. Here are a few facts – I am a Russian born in Lithuania and English is FAR from being my first language. Here is a more important fact – I am trying to improve all the time. And if you found any errors, be so kind and let me know so that I can fix them and do my best not to make the same mistakes again. But if you just want to righteously jab at my writing skills, you can keep that to yourself.
What is more important is that this article wasn’t even about the photograph, something I thought an intelligent person would surely notice. The photograph served only to fuel my ideas for this article. Its description was needed only to show the difference between how a regular viewer such as myself first saw it, and how the author of the work saw it as something else entirely. It could happen with any photograph. A pair of spectacles on a white grand piano presented as a portrait. In other words, almost everything you said is not even on topic.
There was no lust in my writing. None at all. But people see what they want to see. I use words like “tasteful” and “subtle”, because I can see the difference between pornography and artistic nudity. It is a line I drew myself. Someone would draw a different line. You, for example, seem to be absolutely against any sort of nudity. That’s fine. I can respect that. I even find it interesting. I will not respect your jabs, nor will I respect you for your lack of respect for someone else’s opinion.
This article is not about nudity. It is not about what men want or do not want. It is about interpreting art – any sort of art. But you see what you want to see. Alright. Then let me tell you this. I can bet that, for every person in the world, any argument in the world against nudity, there would be another person, another argument for it, or at least not against it. And I am not talking about pornography (pornography as a social, cultural phenomena is also explored by artists. Some mock it and are disgusted by it, others admire it. I do not take sides), because there is no pornography in this article. I am talking about fine art nude and its definition. Are you so arrogant as to claim you are right and the other person is somehow an idiot to not see anything wrong with nudity, one that I and many others would call tasteful? I would never call your opinion somehow worse than mine. The way one expresses it, on the other hand…
How can you say what is decent and what is not, in general? How can you define what is pornography and what isn’t? You can only have an opinion, one YOU believe, one YOU live by. And if you found the above mentioned photograph pornographic, I am sorry, you have no obligation to look at it. Again, the article is not about the photograph. I do not see that photograph as pornographic, not in the slightest. I have no lust for that woman and not a single sexual thought has crossed my mind. If you think a man can not look at a naked woman without thinking sex, it might be you are judging others by your example. I have to disappoint you. I have a very clear distinction between what is sexual and what is not, and am able to look at a naked woman from an entirely artistic standpoint.
So then. My opinion is different. One more time, are you so arrogant as to claim that your opinion is somehow superior to mine? It is DIFFERENT. It is not superior, not “truer”.
For example: nudity of tribal woman in Africa: young, old, skinny, fat – undifrentiated, natural, not “behind doors”, hidden from childs. When you look on the face of a nude model in the western society including the artistic society, its always either soducoing or de-humanized: like showing only small part of the body, like the lins of an “object”), An evidence of the monotheistic notion of the woman that seduces the man to eat the apple in the Garden of Eve. Do you imagine naked male in the forest with skinny boddy and beautiful dick? Do find the find the beauty of that? I guess not, unless you a gay. You find the beauty of young girls that you attract to them. And this is 100% ok – find a girlfriend (and don’t sublimate sexual attraction with art), and don’t prostitute others, and don’t consume it. Sexuality is not something a young girl need to share on the internet with fat old perverts, that are unpleasent that they can’t enjoy the “beauty” of 13 years old girls nudity.
S
Lee,
again, I am not sublimating. I am seeing a difference. I’ve had answers to all your previous questions, I can answer this one just as well. You want me to show an image of a young naked male model? Sure:
1x.com/photo/14934/
You can see no more or less of this model than of the young woman lying on the forest ground. He is also naked. And I would use the same words to describe this photograph – it, too, is tasteful and gracious and subtle. And the man is both young and beautiful, and of approximately the same age as the woman. He, too, meets today’s popular understanding of what is a beautiful man, just like the woman model in the forest photograph meets popular understanding of what is a beautiful woman, and the question of beauty that you so like to emphasize is an entirely different discussion. Anyway, I find the photograph of this man even more interesting than that of the woman. Now, according to Mark, I should come out of the closet at this point as a gay person, because “men love to lust” and I think that the photograph is very, very good. And I am not gay. Which only shows how narrow his thinking is. There is absolutely nothing sexual about this photograph and I am quite certain a lot of people would agree. Mainly because he is male. But as soon as a female poses naked, all hell breaks lose simply because some people can not separate a naked body from sexuality and think that no one else can, too. Because they can’t. Well, sorry to say, but I can. And so do a lot of people.
Should you wish so, I could show you a photograph of a male who is half-naked, but the photograph is no better or worse for it. Or I could show you a photograph where a woman is half-naked, and then there is also a naked man. And it, too, is just as tasteful, gracious, subtle, and not sexual.
For the last time. Yes, sexuality is not something a young woman needs to share on the internet with fat old perverts. True. But the photograph you so blatantly accuse of being pornographic has no sexuality in it, nor anyone who is 13 years old. It is the difference between artistic nudity and pornography that you do not see, and I do. Fine. Don’t see it. Just don’t bash all those who do.
Oh, really… In nude galleries (Photography), you find 1000 images of naked very young female (40 is “too old” – *most* cases, not all) on each 1 images of naked male. In portrait galleries much more balanced: young, old, male, female. Even 60 years old photographers focuses on 18, 20 years old skinny “beautiful” girls.This is not coincidential. When you describe a girl with “sensual” it is already “sexual” – in that point it enters the lands of soft-porn. For many people porn is also “Art”. But lets call it in it’s name.
pornography: noun
1. printed or visual material intended to stimulate sexual excitement.
hmm… Nope. Not excited. Not even a little. And I’m about 60 and pudgy (not quite fat yet).
sensual: adjective
1. relating to the physical senses, especially as a source of pleasure.
2. arousing sexual or other physical gratification.
You do have a point on this one. However, I for one, wouldn’t describe the photo as sensual. Personally, I had no reaction to it at all. I’m not sure what caught the attention of Romanas but I looked at it for about 10 seconds and thought, “meh.”
So you make love with your clothes on and asking for forgiveness ?
“Per se” (in itself) there is nothing inmoral in sex and nudity, and nothing wrong about arousal. God wants we make love more than war. Of course, like in any other human activity, there is the risk of bad taste, vulgarity and abuse. It is natural and good to make love, but you don’t do it in the subway in peak hour, or against the will of your partner.
For me it is clear that art is a legit place for erotism, and I have nothing against erotic representations in art. But here we are discussing something that even is not openly erotic. A well proportioned nude human body is a beautiful thing to see. Something that gives happiness to our soul, and that treated with sensibility could be an element of a work of art. Why we must feel bad or guilty about it ? Because perhaps somebody is going to be aroused or see only the body without appreciating the context ?
When I see a beautiful sexy girl on the street I could have some fantasies. That’s natural, and as much as I don’t do nothing wrong, there is nothing wrong about it. If we are going to censure nudity in art, because there are some people that is going to have “bad thoughts”, which is going to be the next step ? Cover the faces of our females like the Taliban did ?
There is a difference between “making love” (that’s what I do with my girlfriend at our privacy) and a public visual gangbang of a young girl, that you do when you “enjoy” with others a payed-girl for renting her naked body, for yours “heathy erotic stimulation”. Not “Art”; there is a better word for that: “Pimping” and “Prostitution”.
Now that you’ve said something like that, Lee, please specify where in this article or the photograph that gave me the idea to write this article do you see a payed girl that rented her naked body for anyone’s any sort of erotic stimulation? Where do you see any sign of prostitution or pimping? Because you keep saying all of that, and every single time you do I fail to make any sort of connection to my writing or the photograph.
Lee, are you a freaking idiot?! I removed your comment! Which part of “our articles are read by students at schools” did you not understand, saying things like that?? For the last time, I swear. Your “examples” have absolutely nothing to do with the photograph. This photograph has NO sexuality in it, and if your brain only manages to see sex, perverts and alternative motives where there is a naked body, we have absolutely nothing to talk about. Whenever you see a woman’s naked shoulder, do you think she is a hooker and that every single person who looks at her once is a pervert? It is obvious you have absolutely no respect for things you clearly do not understand, yet keep insisting you are somehow right in seeing pornography in the most innocent photograph. It is sad, frankly, how limited your point of view is and how you keep judging others by your example. If all you see is sex, that is your problem. Get it inside your head that you are just proving your unsophistication by trying to appear as an expert of some sort of what is right, and what is evil in art and photography, the first of the two being an area you clearly have no knowledge in whatsoever.
Our ability to understand and creatively interpret fine art photography – any work of art, for that matter – rests solely on our experience, sophistication and education.
You said that, normally, a young woman would not lie on the forest ground naked, and this statement is absolutely ridiculous. Man, seriously? How do you even dare talk about art after this? “Normally” people don’t do a lot of things! Does that mean one should discard half of works of art just because you deemed it pornographic or otherwise inappropriate? Or because “normally people don’t do this and that”? Does that mean art is just a pretty landscape and a pretty bowl of fruit? Get an arts history course, get one on contemporary art, read a few books, watch some videos of artists performing. Here’s a shocker for you – google Marina Abramovic and Balkan Erotic, I bet you won’t understand a thing she is doing and why, and will simply fall off your chair. And then come back and claim that photograph is pornographic and throw your absurd examples left and right!
I swear, if you write a comment like that one more time, I will ban you for good. Watch your language! If you don’t know how to communicate like a grown man, just stop talking. A healthy discussion is one thing, but what you are doing is beyond reason and makes absolutely no sense.
Lee, It doesn’t seem that you are answering me. Please, read again what I wrote and try again.